The Gray Divorce Podcast: Episode 24 Ready for Divorce? A Chat with "Recovering" Divorce Lawyer Karen Covy

Andrew Hatherley |

Announcement: Welcome to The Gray Divorce Podcast hosted by divorce financial analyst and retirement planning counselor Andrew Hatherley. Join Andrew and guest experts as they help late life divorcees build the financial and mental foundation for a meaningful future. There is life after divorce. Now onto the show.

Andrew Hatherley: Welcome to episode 24 of the Gray Divorce Podcast. My guest today is Karen Covy. Karen is a friend and colleague who happens to be a certified divorce coach and consultant, mediator, author, speaker, and collaborative divorce professional. Karen is also what she calls a recovering divorce attorney. I'm looking forward to finding out more about that.

Karen is also a member, as am I, of the Amicable Divorce Network- a team of divorce professionals seeking to guide divorcing couples through a more civilized, transparent, and cost-effective alternative to adversarial divorce litigation. Karen is also the host of the podcast Off The Fence with Karen Covy.

Her podcast explores how we as humans make difficult decisions and what we can all do to finally get off the fence so we can move forward in our lives. By the way, I was honored to be a guest on episode 21 of the Off the Fence Podcast, so please check that out along with the other episodes. Karen, welcome to the Gray Divorce Podcast.

Karen Covy: Thank you Andrew. It is my pleasure to be here.

Andrew Hatherley: Very happy to have you here, Karen. And I was looking at your website, and it piqued my interest. You are describing yourself as a recovering divorce attorney. Being in the divorce world and having gone through it myself, I get what you're talking about, but perhaps you should explain to our listeners. 

Karen Covy: So I am still an attorney and I probably- hopefully always will be until maybe someday- if I retire- we'll see. But I no longer actively represent clients in cases. So I act as a legal consultant within the state of Illinois, but I'm not the person, even though I- I spent a lot of years as a trial lawyer, as a litigator- I'm also the mediator in all the things- that part of my career, like the part where I actively represent clients in court is for the most part, at an end. And I call it recovering versus it's over because being a lawyer- it gets in your soul. It's a way of thinking and- so getting to- to stop being like- being a lawyer- I call it a 12 step program and- and I keep sliding back and I'm- someday I'll get there.

I'm definitely still recovering. 

Andrew Hatherley: When you say recovering, I- because I still suffer some element of post-traumatic stress disorder from my divorce eight years ago. It wasn't a pleasant process, and I can imagine being around the litigious divorce world, or as I sometimes call it, the divorce industrial complex, that's something that you may- it may take a while to get over and you seem to be making a proactive attempt to- to move in the other direction.

Karen Covy: I was a part of the system- I guess you'd call it- for a very long time, and I didn't like the way it operated. And first of all, there's a pretty high rate of burnout too, among divorced professionals, especially divorce lawyers. It's an extraordinarily stressful job and- so we know when you compound that on top of looking at a system that doesn't work the way people think it works- it's not user friendly, it's- it doesn't make sense on so many levels.

And I realized at some point that if I was going to change the way people get divorced, to try to change the system was going to be like a ginormous task and probably wouldn't work. However, I decided that the best way that I could make change was to change the people going into the system because now they would understand the way it works and they could understand the rules and then- I hate to refer to divorce as a game.

It makes me crazy because it's not a game- it's your life. However, I haven't found a better analogy. And if you don't know the rules of the game, you're not going to play it well. You're not going to end up where you would like to be. So, by teaching people what the rules were that gave them the tools to end up in the place they want to be, once the process is over. 

Andrew Hatherley: It's so important. I share your commitment to educating people about the divorce process because so many people who are going through it for the first time haven't planned for it, and it's sometimes thrust upon them, and then the emotions get involved, and you're not thinking clearly. And sometimes you think there's only really two options.

We do it ourselves and not involve attorneys. Or we involve attorneys who may, in some cases, throw fuel on the fire and end up becoming an acrimonious process. But what you- you do and what I do through our mutual involvement in mediation and collaboration and the amicable divorce network is advise people of the alternatives.

There are other ways to get divorced other than the nasty litigated process or simply the do it yourself process. 

Karen Covy: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. But you've gotta look for those ways, right? You've gotta get that education because if you don't know better, you're going to walk into some lawyer's office- as many people do, and they're going to say, sign on the dotted line.

I'll file in court, we'll serve your spouse. And off you go. That is not the only way to do it anymore. As a matter of fact, that's probably the least effective- the least cost effective way of doing it; it causes the most collateral damage. It's not something that you want to do unless you have no choice- unless you have to do it that way. 

So it's important for people to understand what they're dealing with- what kind of choices that they have, and then they can make them. But if the lawyer they go to doesn't tell them about mediation, doesn't tell them about collaborative divorce- people don't know, and then they just do whatever the lawyer says.

Andrew Hatherley: Right.

Karen Covy: And it's like that old adage, ‘when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail’. If you go into the litigator's office, do you think they're going to tell you about mediation? No. They're going to say, ‘I will defend you. I will protect your rights. We can do this in court.’ You go to the mediator's office and they'll say, ‘we can work this out’, and on it goes. 

The truth is you might need the litigator, you might need the mediator, but there are very few professionals. Which is why I became a coach who will educate you as to what all the processes are, and then help you make the decision of which process is going to be right for your situation.

Andrew Hatherley: Exactly. That- and that mirrors what happened in my divorce. I didn't know about all the alternatives. I went to a rather noteworthy litigious type attorney, and there was no discussion of collaborative or mediation despite the fact that probably would've worked best for me and my then spouse at the time.

Karen Covy: Yeah. 

Andrew Hatherley: You mentioned coaching. You've moved- you're a recovering attorney; you’re now a certified divorce coach. You also work as a mediator. I'm curious where you spend most of your time working with people, and I'm curious about the term coach and how maybe that is distinct from, say, a therapist, but first of all, your work, is it largely coach consultant oriented now?

Karen Covy: Yes, most of what I do is as a coach, consultant, or a legal consultant within the state of Illinois. As a lawyer- lawyers are certified on- or licensed- on a state by state basis, right? So I'm only licensed in Illinois. So if clients want- want somebody to review their documents- like maybe they went to mediation, maybe they've got all the documents done, but they want to make sure, ‘Hey, am I getting a fair shake? Hey, is this- is there, did I miss something? Is there something else in here that I need to know about?’ I will do that within the state of Illinois. Most of my work is as a coach with people all over the world. 

Andrew Hatherley: That's interesting. Not just United States. 

Karen Covy: No I- it was interesting to me too because I assumed that the only people who would want to hire me were in the United States.

That's not true because I start with people when they start wondering, ‘do I stay or do I go?’ And that's a decision where people get stuck for decades, and it doesn't matter what state or country you're in. The struggle that you go through to try to figure out the answer to that question is the same.

Andrew Hatherley: It's universal for sure, and I've got an idea for you. I don't know- it might be expensive, but maybe you could license the Clash song Should I Stay or Should I Go for your podcast? 

Karen Covy: That probably would be expensive, but very apropos. 

Andrew Hatherley: I think it would be funny. Following on that, I went to the front page of your website.

You have a quiz where essentially you're asking that question. You ask visitors to your site to take this quiz.- it's right on your homepage of your website- to find out how ready for divorce they really are. This piqued my interest because I've been to a lot of websites in the divorce land and never seen a quiz like this, so perhaps you could explain to us.

I didn't take the quiz. I'm happily married. But what sort of questions are you asking? What sort of things should people be asking themselves pertaining to this profile you've got there? 

Karen Covy: There's- the quiz is actually a lot more involved than than most people would think.

A lot of these quizzes that you see on the website- it's like you answer two questions and they give you some- like- generic response, ‘oh, you're ready or you're not ready.’ And that isn't what I think people are really looking for and really need. A lot of people think they're ready and they are nowhere near.

So the quiz you- how you get through the quiz and what questions are served up to you, depend on your answers. There's a complicated logic tree in there because it's meant to actually sort out the people who have a chance at saving their marriage because if you're interested in doing that and you have a chance of doing that- go do that.

Don't jump into a divorce if you don't need to. It's not fun. It's expensive. It's painful. It's like- it's all the things that you don't want to have in your life if you don't need to have it. But there's also the wisdom in saying if you can't put your marriage back together- if it's not going to work to stay in a dead marriage for decades beating your head against a wall, trying to make it something that it is not and never will be, also doesn't make sense. The first question that to fig- that the quiz is designed to suss out is- are you certain of your decision? And if you are, how prepared are you for what's coming forward?

Because divorce doesn't work the way people think it does. They think, ‘oh, I get my income tax returns. I want a divorce from my spouse. That's all I need.’ And a lot of people think that getting a divorce means they can live their life exactly as they're living it, but their spouse is just going to be out of the picture.

They're going to get what I call a husband-ectomy or a wife-ectomy. Right? Everything stays the same. That person is just gone. That is not what's going to happen. That's not how this works. So it's about showing people- yeah, there's a lot more that you've gotta put together. Maybe you've got it all done and if you do great- that's awesome.

But if you don't, you want to get your ducks in a row and be as prepared as you can be before you go jumping into it. Because it's easier to prepare on the front end than it is to do it in the middle or at the end. 

Andrew Hatherley: Oh, for sure. For sure. And I'm glad you said what you did about people thinking and discussing amongst themselves, ‘is divorce really what I need and what I want?’

Because a myth about divorce practitioners- such as ourselves- is that we're pro-divorce. We’re not pro-divorce at all. We're pro-living a happy, meaningful, contented, purposeful life. If that can't be done within the context of an existing marriage or an existing marriage is actually pulling that- pulling the potential for those sort of- that sort of growth down, then maybe it is time for divorce.

I'm curious- without having taken your quiz or looked at it in depth, is there a financial component? Because you raised the- a very important issue about the wife-ectomy or the husband-ectomy. The fact is you're dividing a household. And two- you're- now the assets the combined assets that one supported one household are now supporting two.

And as a financial advisor, I make sure people know that it's not going to be the same. And recent research shows that for women, typically the standard of living drops about 45% in the first year after divorce. And for men about 21%. So neither party's going to make out on the positive side, financially, certainly not in the near term anyway.

So I'm wondering, do you address the financial aspects at all? Yeah. 

Karen Covy: Yes. But with that being said- it's the quiz is- it's not a substitute for a personal consultation or personal advice. It's a quick, down, and dirty, ‘am I as ready as I think I am? So the financial knowledge is a part of it. 

Do you know what your financial situation is? Do you understand how much money is coming in and how much money is going out? Do you know what your assets are? Do you know what your debts are? So it's basic questions about- like that. But if you wanted to say, ‘Hey, am I going to be able to support myself after a divorce?’- for that, you need someone- a professional, someone like you, Andrew, or someone like me who can sit down and say to people ‘let's talk about what your finances are.’

And I'm a big proponent in a divorce situation- especially the older people get on the path before they file for divorce, the more important it is to have a team approach. 

Andrew Hatherley: Yes. 

Karen Covy: And having a financial advisor as part of your team is so critical because they're the ones that can look at you and really dig in.

You guys have the software that can say, ‘look, you've got X amount of dollars. Let's just say we- hypothetically- divided in half. How long can you live on that given your current income before you run out of money? Do you need to get another job, get a better job, get a job, right? How is this going to work for you?’

That's a critical component that if you don't think of that before you dive in, you could be in a world of hurt once your divorce is over. 

Andrew Hatherley: This is all part of the- the educational process with divorce, which ultimately saves people a lot of money and emotional stress in both- in the short term and long term is incorporating other professionals.

And I can hear people out there in radioland thinking, ‘that's going to cost a lot of money’. No. What costs money is paying, continually paying $450, $500 an hour retainers to attorneys who aren't specialized in divorce coaching. They're not specialized in therapy, they're not specialized in mortgages, and they're certainly not specialized in financial planning and looking at the potential 20 year plus outcome of a settlement on one's retirement income and finances going forward.

But these professionals can all be brought in and yes, this can be brought in at less the cost of the overall divorce. It's an argument that- that I'm making all the time because I've seen it so many times that people thinking, ‘how can that be’? Coaches and therapists are a lot less expensive than attorneys- as are financial planners and mortgage people can't even bill during the process.

It's- it makes so much sense every- as I like, say jokingly- every attorney's office has a box of tissues on the middle of the conference room table. You don't want to be paying your attorney $500, $600 an hour to use their box of tissues. Go to a proper specialist for that.

Karen Covy: A hundred percent. And here's the other thing too. Not only are you paying the lawyer, usually more than you would pay any of those other professionals but that's not their wheelhouse, right? They weren't trained in that. They weren't educated in that. So it's- if you use- if you can put the right professional in charge of the right area of your divorce, you'll end up saving yourself time, saving yourself money, and saving yourself a whole lot of grief and aggravation because you'll have the right professional on the right job.

That's why I tell people, I tell my clients, ‘my job as a coach is to empower you to become the CEO of your own divorce’ because everybody thinks their lawyer is going to do that. I have to tell you, the law- for most people- is about 10% of your divorce. The other 90% is the financial part. It's the emotional part.

It's your parenting and your family and your kids and your social life and your house and your identity, and all those things that your lawyer has nothing to do with. 

Andrew Hatherley: Yep. 

Karen Covy: So even though you- the thought of being the CEO of your own divorce may be intimidating to some people- with a little bit of a mindset shift, you can see how this can become empowering for you and can make this whole experience of divorce- which is never fun, okay? Under the best of circumstances, this is not going to be a good time. However, you can make it less of a bad time by jumping in, taking responsibility, and starting to get educated and understand how to put this team together and get yourself as supported as possible- which, paradoxically, will cost you less money than just going through it alone or doing it with your lawyer.

Andrew Hatherley: I love that term, CEO of your own divorce or quarterback of your own divorce. You really do need to be involved, and I see it as almost- as a launching pad of setting the foundation for your new life going forward and a life after divorce. 

And I think getting a hold of the emotions and the facts about divorce- I've seen it in the divorce workshops that- that I do with attorneys and therapists- is people come in and they've got- you can see the look of their eyes- it's like the deer in the headlights divorce brain kind of fog, and just after half an hour, 45 minutes of saying, ‘no, that's not the way it works. Or you need to focus on- you should really think about focusing on this despite what your sister-in-law says’. You can almost see the weight being lifted off people's shoulders when they take that initiative.

Karen Covy: Yeah- one hundred percent. But it's like what I tell clients. That they're I don't care how good your professionals are, who they are, it doesn't matter. No one is going to care more about your life than you do. And so you can't outsource that. The more you can take responsibility and take charge, and I know it's hard because.

That- that's why I do what I do as a coach, because when you're- especially in the beginning stages of divorce, you've got divorce brain- your head's not clear. You can't think straight. That's why having the right professional, a coach, a therapist by your side to help you clear the fog out. It's so critical, but as you go through it, you're- you start getting more and more clear, and that's when you'll be happy that took ownership of your divorce and started working on it to get it- to get yourself through it, to get your family through it in the way that you want to, in the way that's best for everybody.

Andrew Hatherley: Exactly. You mentioned therapists. I meant to ask you this question earlier. How do you distinguish your work as a divorce coach with the role of a therapist in mar-marital family therapist in divorce? 

Karen Covy: So a therapist is past focused. A coach is future focused. I will steal an analogy, or- that a very good, brilliant divorce coach who is one of my mentors- she's now retired. So this isn't my story, but she used to explain it to people this way. A therapist, if you're going on a trip- a therapist will take your suitcase, help you unpack your bags, sort everything out, get rid of what you don't need, and then pack your bag. The coach will say, just give me the luggage, and I'll walk you to the train station.

So the- a coach is the person who helps you make a plan for your divorce. I take you from where you are now, say, ‘where do you want to be?’ And then we make a plan and a strategy to get there. A therapist is going to say, ‘where are you now? How did you get here? What happened in your past that led you to make the choices that you made that got you into this situation? What's your emotional state? Do you have-?’ 

And a therapist can do things like help you with anxiety and depression and mental health states that a coach really isn't equipped to deal with. I can say, ‘yeah, I can be compassionate, I can help you understand where you're at’, but my focus with clients is how do I get you to where you want to be so that you're not staying in the muck any longer than you need to.

Andrew Hatherley: The focus of this podcast and the- most of the audience listening are involved in mid to late life divorce. It's the Gray Divorce Podcast. And I'm curious if you've seen an increase in the number of people you work with who are perhaps in their fifties or sixties. And if we could touch a little bit on the importance of involving a divorce coach and other professionals for this particular demographic who may have actually built up more of a nest egg, but frankly have less time. 

And if divorce is often the most financially important transaction in one's life, for someone who's a couple years away from retirement, it's really important to get it right.

Karen Covy: A hundred percent. And first of all, a substantial percentage of my clients- I haven't done the math on it to look at it, but a substantial percentage falls into the gray divorce i.e. over 50 category. And the reason that having a coach for that demographic is so important is because you don't have the luxury of time. 

The fundamental difference between gray divorce and any other divorce at any other age is finite resources. You don't have as much time to build up more money to get you through the rest of your life as you do when you're 20. So having somebody there, a coach who can educate you about all of your options, help you put together that team that we talked about, help you navigate through the divorce without making big mistakes- that becomes critical the older you are when you go through the process because you don't have the time to recoup your losses that a 20 year old does. 

You also have a whole lot more at stake, right? You probably have built up more of a nest egg, but the challenge is- as you know, Andrew- is that when you built that nest egg, psychologically you were doing it thinking there were going to be two of you, right?

So it was two people, one household nest egg. Yeah, we got enough. That's no problem. But when you're divorcing in your fifties, sixties, seventies- I have clients in their eighties even. So when you're divorcing at that age, that nest egg that you thought would be enough, may not be enough. So it's about having the professionals who are able to be creative with you to say, ‘how can we configure what's here and rearrange the pieces so that after your divorce you're not destitute, homeless, or eating cat food for the rest of your life?’

Andrew Hatherley: Or an indentured servitude working for another 20 or 30 years. Yeah, it's interesting because that's what my fear was when I was going through my divorce- because that's what my ex said that her attorney said that I would be working for the- that I'd be working for the rest of my life.

Now because I was uneducated, because I didn't have- hadn't spoken to a divorce coach, or somebody who was in the know- that was never going to happen based on the current attitudes to- among judges towards spousal support and our age and all those other things. 

But for a while I worried about it. And a lot of people in their fifties and sixties who may be planning retirement are having to rethink their retirement or even what retirement means to them.

And this can actually be a positive. And this is something- this is a way that I think that I try to help people with my experience- and you as a divorce coach- and understanding how people can reinvent themselves- can reset the button on their lives, is that- maybe they'll rethink what retirement means to them.

And maybe we don't necessarily want- maybe we had planned to go- to retire at 60 and go to the golf course or the tennis court or the beach or whatever. But maybe we rethink that, and maybe we can make our work more meaningful to us in a way that we're more excited or enthused about continuing at it and helping other people and potentially getting more satisfaction out of our work while we continue to- while we continue to gain an income and have the financial resources building. I'm curious if- if what you're seeing with respect to retirement or people's attitudes or growing after divorce, how they might have changed?

Karen Covy: That's an interesting question. I think- to a certain extent- they've changed out of necessity. Like you can have whatever hypothetical ideas about retirement that you want, but when you're going through a divorce and you're faced with a financial reality that says, ‘you have to continue to work for way longer than you thought, or you don't have enough money to survive’, like all of a sudden, you have to rethink retirement.

You have to rethink, ‘Is this- what do I want? And can I- is there a way I can embrace it?’ But whether the idea of continuing to work has been thrust upon you by a divorce or by life, or whether it's your idea to begin with- that you just don't want to retire because you're- you like what you do, you're engaged with your life.

You want to continue to work in some capacity- maybe less hours, maybe part-time, but you still want to be engaged in gainful employment. So we- so you know- as you can call it, but what's important fundamentally is the mindset shift, right? And I've seen people make that voluntarily. I've seen people get dragged into it kicking and screaming.

I've seen people who won't make that shift who say, ‘no, I have been the stay at home parent for 30 years. It is my spouse's job to continue to support me to- what the lawyer said to you- until the day that he or she dies. You can't ever stop working.’ Now, that's not the way it works, right? But I would tell you there's more trash talking among the divorce- in the divorce world than there is in the WF.

So the first thing you gotta realize is don't listen to a lot of the nonsense, but people believe that, and they think that there- there's a sense of entitlement and ‘this is the way it is, and I can't change. I don't want to change. I won't change. I can't change.’ And with that mindset, you're going to have a miserable experience.

Right? So it's about being willing to open your mind and have a growth mindset and say to yourself, ‘this may not be the way I thought my life was going to look at this point. But there's positives in it. I can grow from this. I can rearrange my life. It'll look different, but it's going to be just as good. Maybe, it's even going to be better.’ And that mindset shift is everything.

Andrew Hatherley: Amen. I say at all my divorce workshops, the- that if there's any message that the participants take out of it- that I hope that message will be that there is life after divorce. Because quite often when you're going through it, your imagination's running in overtime as all the terrible things that can happen.

But those things rarely happen. It's just- it's the- the lion around the corner prehistoric DNA in our amygdala. You know what- what divorce can be is an opportunity because something's not right in our life if we're getting divorced, but it's an opportunity to hit the reset button and to do some self-examination.

But it requires that mindset. It requires that open-mindedness. And I'm curious your thoughts on this because I know on your website there's a statement that you're dedicated to helping people decide what they really want and have the courage to act on their decisions so they can finally start living the life the way they want.

And that's great. Sometimes it's difficult for people to know what they really want when they've lived a certain way all their lives and plenty of neuroscience has been done showing that decisions are tough. We want to do everything we can in our life to avoid decisions even when we choose the person we married- we married because we know they're not going to want to get seafood or we know that- what sort of pep pizza we get. I think half the reason for my divorce was an argument over ordering out. 

Karen Covy: Oh my. 

Andrew Hatherley: So it's- decisions are tough and knowing what we want is tough, and I think the work starts with knowing ourselves and using some of the various psychological tools out there to understand ourselves.

But I wonder what your thoughts are on how people can move to make the decisions and find what they really want going forward so they can live a more happy, contented, meaningful life. 

Karen Covy: You know, that is such a big question, and the answer is there's a lot of different ways, tools, techniques, that you can use to clear the fog for yourself and to help you decide what it is that you want, but fundamentally, until you make that decision, you can't move forward because you don't know which direction to go.

So how do you make that decision? There is a science of decision making. And there- there are two guys- I think you and I have talked before- I think you're familiar with the book Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath? 

Andrew Hatherley: I'm not familiar with that one. 

Karen Covy: Okay. There are two university professors, I think one is Stanford, one is Yale- I can't remember.

They're brothers, and they wrote a book called Decisive, and they studied military decisions, business decisions, some personal decisions, but like all these big decisions in history and said, ‘how did people make this decision and how did it turn out? Did it turn out well or badly? 

And they started to compile a- a structure- a way to approach decision making that makes it fundamentally- it gives- because you have a structure, it makes it easier. And they use a process that they call the wrap process. It's a process that I have tweaked, modified a little bit, and often used with my own CL clients. I call it- I wrap up because I'm a lawyer, and I have to make everything longer.

So even see this is the recovery part. It takes a long time to get outta the lawyer mindset- that's one technique. There are also- there's a lot of somatic techniques about getting in touch with your body and what- there's wisdom- we all have wisdom inside ourselves. The problem isn't usually finding it and going finding it outside of us.

It has to do with looking inside and stop stopping yourself. Stop throwing up all the noise and get quiet and say, ‘what is it that I really want?’ Some people do well with meditation- with those kinds of inner techniques. Other people do better with action, right? With saying, ‘okay. Let me go try something and see, do I like this? Do I like that? Do I like the other thing?’ 

So sometimes action can propel you into a decision. Sometimes you know it- it all depends on who you are and what speaks to you. There are a lot of different techniques. The one technique that absolutely doesn't work is doing nothing. Just hope- and just hoping things will change.

That's what I call hopium and that will keep you stuck for a very long time. 

Andrew Hatherley: That's a drug you don't want to get hooked on. 

Karen Covy: No, absolutely not. 

Andrew Hatherley: You don't want to get hooked on any of them, but that's a particularly bad one. Karen, I've loved chatting with you, and there's just so much more we can talk about, but I don't want to run past our time today.

This is all very thought provoking stuff and I do encourage people to visit your website which is Correct?

Karen Covy: Correct. There's no E in my version of Covy. Otherwise, I would be- like- related to somebody famous and I probably wouldn't have to work for a living.

Andrew Hatherley: That's so true. That's funny. You have to petition for the absence of the E when your name is spelled. I always have to encourage people to add the E because they always drop the E in Hatherley. 

Karen Covy: Yep. 

Andrew Hatherley: It's Hatherley with a- with an E- Karen Covy without an E .com. Is that the best way to reach you if- if any of our listeners are- want to find out more about your divorce coaching services?

Karen Covy: Absolutely. I'm on all the socials as Karen Covy, but the best place to reach me is on my website- 

Andrew Hatherley: Terrific. Thanks again, Karen- appreciate having you on today. 

Karen Covy: You're welcome. It has been my pleasure.

Announcement: Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of The Gray Divorce Podcast. To learn more or get in contact with your host, you can visit Andrew's website at Also, please feel free to rate, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you'll listen to your podcast. That helps others find the show, and we greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode.

Andrew Hatherley: Information provided is educational only and should not be construed as legal or tax advice. Each situation is unique and should be discussed with your tax or legal advisor prior to implementation. Andrew Hatherley is not an attorney and does not provide legal advice. Information provided is financial in nature.

Advisory services offered through Hatherley Capital Management LLC, Divorce Financial Analysis Services offered through Wiser Divorce Solutions- an affiliated company.